I am researching the mormon religion from the peoples perspective [see new profile] and this question is part of that ongoing research. I use the word "mormon" as a tag so these questions can be found and answered by ANYONE who is doing a YA search containing the word MORMON and knowledgable in this area. I am not, nor have I ever been, a mormon. That means the questions being asked and answered ALL stem from the responders input. My email and questions are open in my profile. As always, if you think this question is interesting enough to share with a star then PLEASE DO. Thank You. beta...what you are saying is in conflict with what most other mormons are saying....can you provide scripture reference? This question is a follow up question to another one I just asked. I will be back in a minute with url but if you read that one, you will see why I am questioning your response on this one. I am NOT asking you or anyone else to answer the other question. Its just being provided as clarification to this paticular response. Ok this is going to be long...but there are scriptural references.
If they鈥檙e keeping records on the other side, why do we spend so many inefficient hours at it here, especially in genealogical work?鈥?br>
Theodore M. Burton, 鈥淨&A: Questions and Answers,鈥?New Era, Sept. 1974, 12鈥?3
Answer/Elder Theodore M. Burton
The best answers to questions are those found in the scriptures. If answers are not found there, you can be quite certain that they are not pertinent for us to know at this time. I chuckle when I hear the Lord鈥檚 answer to Moses when he wanted to know all about the universe, how it began and how it was organized. (See Moses 1:30.) The Lord simply said:
鈥淔or mine own purpose have I made these things. Here is wisdom and it remaineth in me.鈥?(Moses 1:31.)
In answering some questions, we could well ask: 鈥淲hat difference does it make?鈥?In some cases it makes a great difference; the Lord recognized this when he told Moses that he would give him information on every question that he needed to know as a result of his life here on this earth. God said in explanation:
鈥淏ut only an account of this earth and the inhabitants thereof give I unto you.鈥?(Moses 1:35.)
Now the student who has asked the above question has asked an important question that does pertain to this earth. God, accordingly, through a prophet, has given us an answer, which I now quote:
鈥淎nd further, I want you to remember that John the Revelator was contemplating this very subject in relation to the dead, when he declared, as you will find recorded in Revelation 20:12鈥擜nd I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. [Rev. 20:12]
鈥淵ou will discover in this quotation that the books were opened; and another book was opened, which was the book of life; but the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works; consequently, the books spoken of must be the books which contained the record of their works, and refer to the records which are kept on the earth. And the book which was the book of life is the record which is kept in heaven; the principle agreeing precisely with the doctrine which is commanded you in the revelation contained in the letter which I wrote to you previous to my leaving my place鈥攖hat in all your recordings it may be recorded in heaven.
鈥淣ow, the nature of this ordinance consists in the power of the priesthood, by the revelation of Jesus Christ, wherein it is granted that whatsoever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatsoever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. Or, in other words, taking a different view of the translation, whatsoever you record on earth shall be recorded in heaven, and whatsoever you do not record on earth shall not be recorded in heaven; for out of the books shall your dead be judged, according to their own works, whether they themselves have attended to the ordinances on their own propria persona, or by the means of their own agents, according to the ordinance which God has prepared for their salvation from before the foundation of the world, according to the records which they have kept concerning their dead.鈥?(D&C 128:6鈥?.)
I have underlined two words which I feel are important. We are responsible for the members of our own family to see that their work has been done. As a result of the four-generation program my brothers and I have hired professional researchers at considerable cost to check every step on one of our ancestral lines. We had long thought the work had been done by our parents and grandparents, for we are four-generation Mormons on all four of our ancestral lines. We found that our dear grandmother and her sisters had never been sealed to their parents and our sweet great grandmother, who was the first to receive the gospel, which has provided us one-fourth of our spiritual heritage, had never been sealed to her husband nor had her children sealed to her.
True there are records in heaven, but what good are they there at present? Temple work cannot be done in heaven but must be done on earth. There will hardly be enough time during the thousand years of the Millennium to take care of the special cases of those whose records have been destroyed or overlooked. We should remember that out of approximately 6,000 years of time when billions of people have come and gone on the earth, we have records for only about the past 400 years. Much of the Millennium must therefore be reserved for those who need proxy work and who lived in times when no records were kept or for which records do not now exist. Then, also, the Ten Tribes have to bring their records too for their own temple work. That will also take a high priority in the Millennium.
The use of our approximately 400 years of records and the use of temples must be a training ground for us, preparing the Church for the time when this temple work will be our major assignment using the experience already gained.
As to records being kept on the other side, the Lord never did work that man could do for himself. 鈥淢an鈥檚 ways are not my ways,鈥?said the Lord. He could have held up the pioneers for a hundred years and brought them across the plains in air-conditioned Cadillacs, but that would not have tried their faith nor built the strength now found in their descendants. I think there is a parallel here for the pitifully small amount of genealogical work most of our Latter-day Saints are now doing. We could and should do more to exercise our obedience to the Lord and our willingness to make sacrifices because of the faith we have developed.
We must do all we can here and now to do this genealogical work, which sometimes does appear to be inefficient and expensive, but which the Lord, through Joseph Smith said was the 鈥渟ummum bonum鈥?(or the greatest value or the most important part) in the use of the powers of the priesthood. (D&C 128:11.) Sometimes I stand in awe at your lack of understanding. Report It
God makes all the ordinances required available, either the person accepts them while they are alive and therefore does the work for themselves, or they accept them when they are dead, but before judgment and they are done by those still living on behalf of those who are dead. Either way, the necessary work is done, and it's up to us to accept it or reject it. All the ordinances of the gospel, including baptism, gift of the Holy Ghost, priesthood ordinations, temple ordinances, etc must be performed on this earth. That's why we do proxy work in the temples.
Additionally, the church can help lead one to live a mortal life filled with joy for those who grasp onto and follow the restored gospel of Jesus Christ.
EDIT: No, what I'm saying is not different from what all the othe LDS people here are saying. Ordainances are performed on the Earth. They are not performed in heaven. However, ordinances can be performed *by proxy* for those who didn't receive them during their mortal lives. For all your questions, the answers are readily available at www.lds.org. I don't know if it is really about services as it is about "blessings." It is that old debate of a sinner on his deathbed and with his last breath says, "I believe." What is the difference in him and a righteous person who lived good their entire life? I think it comes down to blessings and having the knowledge of the truthfulness of Jesus Christ's gospel. And from that comes true happiness. After death a person can be taught in the spirit world, but they miss the opportunity to change their life. So I guess that "service" is not offered. We are here in part, to learn how to live with a physical body. Once you are dead, class time is over. Spiritual growth is much easier with a body, than without a body.
Maybe I should clarify something - since your counter questions don't make any sense to me. We are in an area of great speculation here, because we don't know exactly what will happen. We know that Christ taught the gospel in the spirit world, so that they could be judged like the people on Earth. This presumes that they can repent as spirits, if they so desire. We know that a man and a woman can be sealed together for time and for all eternity, and that together they will inherit the Celestial kingdom, if they are worthy. Christ taught that there was no marriage in heaven. We take that to mean no giving in marriage, as he himself clarified. In other words, once a person has reached the Celestial kingdom, there will be no further weddings. That leaves the time between birth and resurrection as the only time when we can get married eternally. Proxy work automatically seals a wife and husband together, if they were married during mortality. What hasn't been revealed, to my knowledge, is what happens to righteous men and women who never marry while they are in mortality. Perhaps they will be given the chance, as spirits, and their names given through revelation to temple workers, so that their work can be done. It is speculation, but it sounds plausable. We are promised a thousand year period of time when all of the temple work that hasn't yet been done, for lack of records, will be done. I'm not sure where your confusion lies... does this clear things up?
We don't know all things, but we do know the Lord is fair, and that he loves us, and that we can trust him. If you exercise faith, you will see the miracle.
P.S. - I still feel like your missing a piece of the puzzle, because your responses still don't make much sense. You do realize, don't you, that the three kingdoms of heaven don't exist yet, or are unpopulated, as people only are assigned to a glory AFTER the great judgement which is AFTER the millenium(1000 years of peace). In fact the Earth itself will be glorified and become the Celestial kingdom. If there are any mistakes of commision, or ommision, then there is plenty of time to correct them. The temple is a link to the spirit world. It is a place where the two worlds overlap. There is a veil that separates this world from the spirit world, but it is thinest in the Holy Temples. God's church is organized in the Spirit World, as it is organized on Earth, and together they work for the exaltation of mankind. I read this one this morning. Are you recycling them? As gumby said you personally cannot participate in temple ordinances, or really any ordinances for that matter after death. That is why we have proxy ordinance work in the temple. You can be taught the gospel though and accept it after death and then when the ordinances have been performed for you by proxy- then you can accept or reject them.
Edit:
I believe it is in Matthew where it says: Whatsoever you shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven-
I am not sure whether or not is say in the bible anything about ordinances needing to be done one Earth. We know that Jesus was baptized while on Earth. I believe he was also married (that is not LDS doctrine though- just my opinion). It was an important ordinance or He would not have done it. I think this is where modern revelation comes into play. There are a lot of things that are vague or not addressed in the Bible, modern day prophet have had many of these things revealed to them.
If we believe that our prophets truly are/were prophets of God, then we need to trust these things that were revealed to him. This is one thing thats sets us apart from other faiths, we believe that the heavens are not sealed and that God still speaks to Mankind.
I hope that makes sense. Your wording of this question has caused some confusion IMHO. People are trying to distinguish between performing the service itself, and the benefits and blessings of the performing the service. What beta said is correct, the service ITSELF must be performed on Earth. However, the God will and does make available ALL the benefits and blessings of such services after death. I hope the difference is clear.
As far as your other question about the Earth blowing up...it's kind of a red herring question. The Earth won't blow up. But if it were, God would have naturally accounted for that in his plan (since he can see the end from the beginning). But the Earth will remain at least until the end of the milennium. By that time all the vicarious ordinances will have been completed. All the temple ordinances have to be performed on this earth. Is that what you are talking about? But they are available by proxy until the final resurrection. That's only if you didn't have the opportunity to receive them in this life. Basically this life is the first test but it's pretty much a pop quiz. After death, before the final resurrection, we are able to learn more about God with a sure knowledge and make informed choices. Will there be a difference in blessings between one who decided to follow God in this life versus the next? I don't know. Some say yes. But I don't think that's very fair. Assuming I'm in the correct church, I was born into it. How is it fair that I chose to continue believing what I was raised to believe when some people never hear of my church? Do I deserve more blessings for that? I don't think so.
Anyway, my opinion is that all services and blessings will be available to anyone and everyone before the final resurrection.
EDIT: Actually, what beta is saying is correct. The ordinances MUST be done on the earth but they can be done by proxy. Even by proxy, they're still being done on the earth. Well since God is a perfectly just God, it would make sense that He would not deny any of His children any oppurtinities whether in this life or the next.
But keep in mind that this life is the time to prepare to meet God, and we shouldn't wait for the next life if we have the oppurtinities now, because they will not be extended to those who denied them here. Keep in mind this is my understanding of the Gospel, the necessary ordinances that apply, and temple work.
I do know that our Father is fair and loves each of His children. No man, woman, or child will be turned away from Him unless they chose it for themselves.
Addition: I went searching and found these quotes from Joseph Smith concerning the Salvation of the Dead.
"All those who have not had an opportunity of hearing the Gospel, AND being administered unto by an inspired man in the flesh, MUST have it hereafter, before they can be finally judged. (Teacings of the Prophet Joseph Smith pg 121)
"It is no more incredible that God should SAVE the dead, than that He should RAISE the dead." (TPJS pg 191)
"What has become of our fathers? Will they all be damned for not obeying the Gospel when they never heard it? Certainly not. But they will possess the same privilege that we here enjoy, through the medium of the everlasting Priesthood, which not only administer on earth but also in Heaven, and in the wise dispensions of the great Jehovah; hence they will be visited by the Priesthood, and come out of their prison upon the same principle as those who were disobedient in the days of Noah were visited by our Savior..."
I have more if you'd like. Hope this helped You must receive all those ordinances because without them you cannot enter the Celestial Kingdom. They MUST be performed here on earth, but they can be performed in proxy for those who did not have a chance to do it themselves. You CANNOT perform those ordinances for yourself or anyone else after you have died. They MUST to be performed by a LIVING member of the Church. Once you have died and moved on, you can no longer perform them. That is what Beta meant. If you die without doing them for yourself, someone else will have to find your name and all the necessary details, and take your name to the temple and do your work. You cannot do it for yourself.
That is why the Millennium will be so important. We will be able to find the names of every person who has lived on this earth, and everyones work will be done. All will have that chance to accept the Gospel and the ordinances that are necessary for exaltation in the Celestial Kingdom. But those who have died will not be able to do their own work, even during the Millennium. This is why it is so important that members go to the temple frequently to perform those saving ordinances for those who cannot do it themselves.
EDIT: What, do you want actual quotes of where this stuff is written, or what. I could find that if you want it. You aren't making a whole lot of sense, and none of the statements by the Mormons on here are in the least bit contradictory. Services? Sunday worship services, charitable services, welfare services, baptism services I'm not sure what you are looking for here exactly?
Anything officially done or bound by priesthood authority here on earth will already be bound in heaven. Anything that has NOT been carried out while in mortality might be able to be done via proxy but that covers a lot of ground so that depends.
Anything that is materialistic or worldly based will not be available after death - beyond that, if it is of a spiritual nature I can't think of something that will not be available to us after this life in one way./form or another, but I could be missing something. You're question is a bit difficult to understand.
Temple ordinances performed by the living for the benefit of the dead are made available to the diseased in the next life.
It's my understanding that all temple work will have been completed by the end of the 1000 year millennium and won't continue beyond that point.
Additionally, there is a certain unknown factor. We don't have a clear understanding of what the day-to-day activities are of the diseased. Perhaps they're engaged in the same work on their end as we are here.
In any case, you're probably referring to the temple ordinances and genealogy as those are the only things that we do for the behalf of the dead. There are four ordinances that we strive to perform for our ancestors: Baptism, washing and anointing, the endowment, and the sealing (marriage) when applicable.
Hope that's helpful. See my answer to your other question for scriptural details.
I hope you see by now how the Mormons are united in their answers.
All the blessings that are promised to us here on earth, in accordance to our faith and submission to the laws and covenants we make, are available to the dead when and if they accept these things while they are awaiting the resurrection. To receive some of these blessings ordinances must be performed here on earth by proxy for them. These ordinances include baptism and confirmation, the temple endowment, bestowal of priesthood, sealing of husband and wife, and sealing of children to their parents. We understand that these things can't be done directly to a person who does not have a body.
To answer your other question, see Matthew 16: 15-20
"He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ."
See also the Book of Mormon (Helaman 10:7) "Behold, I give unto you power, that whatsoever ye shall seal on earth shall be sealed in heaven; and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven; and thus shall ye have power among this people."
Also the Doctrine and Covenants: "That whoever he blesses shall be blessed, and whoever he curses shall be cursed; that whatsoever he shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatsoever he shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven." (D&C 124:93). And "And verily, verily, I say unto you, that whatsoever you seal on earth shall be sealed in heaven; and whatsoever you bind on earth, in my name and by my word, saith the Lord, it shall be eternally bound in the heavens;...." (D&C 132:46)
In regard to marriage in heaven, the Bible says "And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage: But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:" (Luke 20: 34-35).
I don't think the Bible verse is as cut and dried as some seem to think. See also Doctrine and Covenants 132. The Lord was talking about "the children of this world," and not those who have forsaken the world and become followers of Jesus Christ. He was talking about marriage contracts that are performed without the sealing powers given to those who can bind on earth and have it bound in heaven. Those marriages end at death. In the next world they will not be permitted to marry. See the entire chapter in context. I'm going to equate "services" to mean ordinances or rites. We are told that certain ordinances must be performed on earth and that for those who have never had the opportunity, a proxy service/ordinance/rite will be provided/performed.
Heavenly Father wants all his children to return to him and receive blessings of him, but it also appears that He has certain rules that he has laid down for us to follow. Those rules, conditions, practices, teachings, are all based upon eternal principles, of which Love of Heaven Father (God) is the highest, followed by Love of our fellow human beings. If we truly love someone, we will never want to cause a hurt for them (denying the blessings of heaven would cause a hurt, just as telling a child no to something they have been promised can be devastating).
We also believe that the Lord is just and merciful and through the atonement of Jesus, and the heavenly grace, we all will be blessed.
But that doesn't answer your question. It only sets the stage.
The scripture, as you have pointed out, is plain about marriage. The scripture as another has pointed out is plain about what is bound on earth is bound in heaven - meaning, it is recognized as valid in heaven.
As I mentioned in my last response, we also believe that the Lord will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.
As such, all we can report is what has been established as doctrine. We can provide some information that goes beyond that, but it is limited. Journals and reports are sometimes useful, but they do not establish the doctrines of the church. That some members may use them to teach cannot be denied, but publicly accessible manuals are those which we are instructed to follow in our classes and any who introduce new material beyond what is provided is potentially teaching their own brand of "Mormonism".
To your question - Jesus was baptized to fulfill all righteousness. Did he need baptism? We do not believe he did, but yet, he came to John and was baptized of him. The reason is simple - it is a requirement for heaven. And, like the ordinance of baptism, the ordinance of temple marriage, entering into the "new and everlasting covenant" is a requirement for the highest degree of glory in the Celestial Kingdom - eternal progression or eternal increase.
We are told that these two ordinances (baptism and marriage), along with the other ordinances performed in the temple are necessary and are to be performed here.
In another post to one of your questions, I referred you to the lesson material for the temple preparation classes. It seems obvious that the performing of ordinances is done on earth because the members are schooled to obey the leaders and do what they are told, not because of some well thought out theology.
The LDS church leaders are almost all businessmen and attorneys rather than theologists. Rather than outsource the management of their billions, they outsource their theology to professional and amateur apologists.
As long as the member obey, they don't have to understand or make sense of it. |
